Legislature(1999 - 2000)
04/04/2000 08:10 AM House STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 438-PERS BENEFITS FOR EMERGENCY MEDICAL TECHS CHAIR JAMES announced the next order of business is HOUSE BILL NO. 438, "An Act permitting certain emergency medical personnel in police or fire departments or employed by the state troopers to convert their credited service under the public employees' retirement system to credited service as peace officers; and providing for an effective date." Number 0221 PATRICK HARMAN, Legislative Aide to Representative Pete Kott, said the genesis of HB 438 was HB 230, which was a Public Employees' Retirement System (PERS) bill that this committee heard and moved on. He noted that HB 230 had been amended along the way and has been approved. He explained that when HB 230 was in the Senate Senator Mackie, Chairman of Senate, Labor and Commerce Committee, wanted to use the same concept for emergency medical technicians (EMT). Because of a required title change, that can be a little difficult, and he had agreed to submit a similar bill to HB 230 for EMTs. He indicated that HB 438 provides EMTs with the option to retire at 20 years of service as an EMT. He mentioned that at retirement the EMT pays the full actuarial cost of the 20-year retirement or takes a reduced pension. The effect on the PERS is revenue neutral or no cost for this benefit to the state of Alaska. He said he hoped that this type of entitlement would improve EMT retention because of EMT burnout. If retention is improved in that particular job classification, cost is reduced to both the state and municipalities. He remarked that the number of EMTs or emergency medical services (EMS), who are not firemen, are probably a very small part of the population, but he does not have exact numbers. Hopefully there will be testimony on line that [can verify that there are just a handful of people]. He thinks the bottom line here is the sponsor's intent that a 20- year retirement be revenue neutral for states and municipalities. The annual cost for the employer contribution and long-term actuarial costs must be achieved at no cost to the state or municipalities. He stated that the sponsor has achieved this and there is a zero fiscal note. TAPE 00-28, SIDE A Number 0030 REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY asked if the individual would have to spend a full 20 years as an EMT or could he/she take ten years in one aspect of the retirement system with the state and ten years as an EMT. BILL CHURCH, Retirement Supervisor, Division of Retirement & Benefits, Department of Administration, replied that the way HB 438 is written would address someone who has completed 20 years in the position as an EMT, a medical service officer or medical technician. He agreed with Mr. Harman that HB 438 in general is going to apply to a much smaller group because individual employers have the ability of crafting position descriptions independently from one another. He informed the committee that many of these folks in this situation are classified as fire fighters and part of their duties are as an EMT or emergency medical officer; therefore, [their EMT work] becomes part of their fire fighting duties. He acknowledged that fire fighters are covered under the "20 and out" system in the state retirement system so he does believe that EMTs is a much smaller group. Mr. Church remarked that as Mr. Harman has testified HB 438 is a zero cost bill because once the employees have worked 20 years in these positions they may come and make a claim to the division to convert their service so that they can be treated as a peace officer or fireman. At that point an employee could retire, but he/she would be required to pay the full cost of providing benefits under that "20 and out" system. Number 0284 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if HB 438 would largely relate to municipal employees since very few, if any, state employees would fall under this [EMT designation]. MR. CHURCH answered that he believes that state employees are specifically classified under the "20 and out" system as firefighters. He cannot guarantee that because he is not familiar with every situation in the various departments with the state. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if municipal employers are prepared to testify on HB 438 since municipal employers would be largely affected. CHAIR JAMES replied that HB 438 does not affect municipal employers financially. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON noted that HB 438 does affect them perhaps in early departure because it is just like "early outs" and many policy questions that have come before this committee. He explained that it is always important for the record to reflect [testimony and discussion]. Number 0388 MELVIN VOSTRY, EMS Section, Matanuska-Susitna (Mat-Su) Department of Public Safety, testified via teleconference from Wasilla. He said that this morning he had arrived fully intending to speak in favor of HB 438, but unfortunately he had not received a copy of the bill prior to his arrival. As he read HB 438 this morning, he noted that it speaks to personnel who are in a police department or in a fire department and serve in an EMS capacity. Currently the Mat-Su Borough administers EMS services under the Department of Public Safety, which has no police powers, and also administers equally fire protection on a fire service area basis. So HB 438 as it is worded does not speak to his situation or his colleagues' situation. He commented that he was hoping that EMS personnel would finally receive equal footing with fire department and law enforcement personnel in recognition of the service that they provide in terms of danger and stress. He mentioned that it is very painfully apparent from his perspective that EMS personnel are suffering burnout, and for someone to stay in EMS for 30 years before they retire may very well work a hardship on them. Number 0567 CHAIR JAMES said that Mr. Vostry had indicated that the Mat-Su Borough has a Department of Public Safety, but it does not have police powers. She asked if that was correct. MR. VOSTRY answered in the affirmative. He noted that the Mat-Su Borough does not have any law enforcement agency. He explained that the city of Palmer, the city of Wasilla and the Alaska State Troopers are the law enforcement agencies within the Mat-Su Borough. CHAIR JAMES asked if there are any EMS folks who work for the borough that do not work for a fire department. Number 0697 MR. VOSTRY replied in the affirmative. He commented that he is one, and his colleague is another. The Mat-Su Borough is exploring the possibility of providing full-time EMS services within the next two years, which would probably account for 18-20 positions, and these people would be ambulance personnel only, not be fire personnel. Fire service is provided on a fire service area basis in the borough, whereas EMS is boroughwide. CHAIR JAMES informed Mr. Vostry that the committee might be able to fix [the discrepancy] in HB 438, and that is why she asked those particular questions. Number 0739 BILL MACKRETH, Paramedic EMT, Mat-Su Borough, testified via teleconference from Wasilla in support of HB 438. He reiterated that stress and the occasional hazard that Mr. Vostry referred to is very real. He said that the physically demanding nature of EMS would make 20-year retirement a great advantage for EMS personnel. Like Mr. Vostry, Mr. Mackreth is employed strictly in an emergency medical capacity. He is a paramedic coordinator but has no fire fighting or law enforcement responsibilities. He thinks that it is inevitable that in the Mat-Su Borough and statewide, the pattern will mirror what has happened in the rest of the country. He explained that as population grows and demands more EMS, there will be more full-time EMS personnel employed. It would certainly be an advantage if HB 438 could address their status as well. CHAIR JAMES asked Mr. Mackreth to tell her what his status is now for retirement. Number 0832 MR. MACKRETH replied that he can retire in 30 years. CHAIR JAMES asked Mr. Mackreth if he would be able to buy into a 20-year retirement with his own money, without any cost to the municipality or the retirement system, if the committee included municipalities in HB 438 or the Department of Public Safety of the Mat-Su Borough as an example. MR. MACKRETH answered that HB 438 was explained to him in that manner. Number 0882 DAVID HULL, Lieutenant, Ketchikan Fire Department, testified via teleconference from Ketchikan. He read his testimony as follows: My name is David Hull and I am a career Lieutenant for the Ketchikan Fire Department. I have been a firefighter for 25 years. I am also a paramedic and have been involved with Emergency Medical Services (EMS) for over 23 years. Before you this morning for your consideration is HB 438, an act permitting certain emergency medical personnel to convert their retirement under PERS to a 20-year program instead of the 30-year program that they fall under now. Career Emergency Medical Technician (EMT), Paramedics and EMS officers are currently not included in the PERS 20-year retirement plan even if they are a fire or police based system. Recently the House Judiciary and the Senate Labor and Commerce Committees passed HB 230 allowing dispatchers in a police or fire department coverage by the PERS "20 and out" system. This was a right decision. The inclusion of the dispatchers is much deserved as the compelling testimony pointed out; however, career EMS personnel would also be added to this definition. Under pressure from PERS last year, our fire department had to make changes to the job description of our career EMS specialists to include primary fire fighting duties or face having them removed from this "20 and out" provision. We are now conducting a search for a new EMS captain to head our EMS division. This person's duties will involve maintaining the level of service that this department is currently providing. Without changing the job description, this position will not be covered under the "20 and out" provision of the PERS system. This position should be covered, a should other career EMS positions without having to change the duties and intent of their EMS position. Over 60% of the calls this department responds to are EMS calls. That compares with the national average. In fact, all across the nation, EMS is being recognized as a "bread and butter" operation for fire departments large and small alike. While there is no denying the dangers involved in fighting fire, EMS has its very real dangers also. Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C. antibiotic resistant strains of tuberculosis (TB), and of course human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) are just a few of the dangers that face EMS personnel on every call they go on. These people cold be holding your life or someone's life you know in their hands. The skills and equipment they put to use save lives. Even if the situation is not life threatening, EMS providers still save life styles by handling broken limbs and spines properly thereby limiting additional damage and possibly a lifetime of disability. Trauma is one of the leading causes of death and disability nation wide. Alaska leads the nation in this per capita statistic. The stresses involved in this activity rival any produced on a fire scene or police action. While it has been said that EMS personnel do not face the levels of stress that firefighters or police officers do in a life and death situation, I can tell you from personal experience that holding someone's life in your hands and the only reason they may have a chance at all is based on your making a right decision, that level of stress is every bit as intense and difficult to deal with. I can make that statement freely and truthfully. I have been o both sides of the issue. I have worked on countless people and countless fires these last 23 years and having gotten killed a couple of times and living through it, my preference, stress wise, is still a good old house fire any day. I tried to have EMS personnel added when HB 230 was in House Judiciary Committee, but was late in my interaction. Representative Williams informed me that the bill had already cleared the House and was on its way to the Senate. He suggested I put in my request there. My first information put the bill in the Senate Judiciary Committee. Jim, in Senator's Taylor's office was kind enough to steer me in the right direction and also informed me that the addition of EMS personnel will carry no fiscal note to the bill, the same effect as adding in the dispatchers. That was how I ended up testifying before the Labor and Commerce Committee, again I was a little late. Regardless of the outcome of my request, I want to thank Representative Kott and Senator Mackie, and the members of both their committees for giving me a second chance at rectifying this exclusion of EMS personnel from the PERS 20-year retirement. I also need to thank their respective aids, Patrick Harman and Dave Grey for their guidance of this politically inept individual through the rigors of legislative reality. I want to conclude by saying that I am proud to be a firefighter and a paramedic. Both professions have been equally rewarding to me, and equally stressful. EMS should be able to stand on its own when compared to the police and fire professions. Police and fire personnel, as well as police and fire dispatchers, belong in this PERS provision, base done their job description. Having said that, I strongly believe that career EMS positions would also be included in this provision without the necessity of changing their job descriptions to make them eligible. Number 1253 MIKE GOODWIN, State Park Peace Officer, Department of Natural Resources, testified via teleconference from Anchorage. He said he supports the EMTs employed in state trooper, police and fire departments in their efforts to get their service time under the PERS recognized as credited service as peace officers. He explained that he understands that other bills before the legislature are trying to include police, state troopers, fire department dispatchers, juvenile detention employees and some correctional employees under the PERS as peace officers as well. He also understands most if not all bills are revenue neutral asking for no fiscal notes but requiring the employee to pay indebtedness at the time of conversion. MR. GOODWIN said he is a state park peace officer so designated by state statute and a 20-year veteran within the Department of Natural Resources. Commissioned as a state park ranger, he needs the committee's help to understand how state park rangers can also be included in a bill that recognizes them as PERS peace officers. He indicated that state park rangers have authority, make arrests, issue citations and wear a uniform, a firearm, and a body arm. He informed the committee that state park rangers enforce laws of the state within their jurisdiction, perform emergency medical services and provide search and rescue to citizens in need of aid. He emphasized that he is asking for the committee's due consideration in the legislature to include not only those EMTs, dispatchers, juvenile detention employees and correctional employees but also commissioned state park peace officers within the PERS. Number 1412 CHAIR JAMES asked if park rangers attend the police academy to get their jobs. MR. GOODWIN replied in the affirmative. He said that most of the park rangers do attend the Department of Public Safety Academy in Sitka the same as municipal police officers. CHAIR JAMES asked Mr. Harman if the committee is missing anyone doing these little PERS bills. She commented that she does not know how expensive it would be to put [the park rangers in the bill]. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON mentioned that he had an idea that he thought might solve all of our problems. He directed committee members to page 2, line 7, (g) of HB 438, which states: "When an employee who was employed as an emergency medical service officer or an emergency medical technician in a state trooper office or in a police or fire department..." and if "or in any other emergency medical capacity" and then continue in paragraph (g) it seems to him like that wording would catch the park EMT and the municipal EMTs that are not a part of the fire or police. He indicated that the committee could [do that]. Number 1501 CHAIR JAMES remarked she would take [that suggestion] as a conceptual amendment and thinks that the committee would have to ask the drafters, if the sponsor agrees to this, to tell the committee how that would work. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON agreed that the drafter would have to supply specific words. MR. HARMAN said immediately where the sponsor needs to do a conceptual amendment to the title and in the body of HB 438 to get the Department of Public Safety and the sponsor to agree to that [change]. He stated that as far as getting other job classifications into HB 438 at every step of the way different career groups have tried to get into it, and he thinks that it is probably better that everybody get an airing out individually through the whole process instead of hanging additional but closely related job classifications onto these various bills. Number 1557 CHAIR JAMES said she had been wondering about that and wanted to know if the committee has left any [related career group] out. She noted that the committee has done Corrections, Fire, EMS, and technically what the committee was doing was picking on people who live a dangerous lifestyle in their jobs that are currently under a 30-year retirement system. She explained that HB 438 and the other PERS bills would allow them to buy in at their choice with no cost to their employer to get a 20-year retirement. She commented that she does not think any one group has been left out but asked if the committee has left out any [group]. REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA replied that she has a bill for juvenile correctional officers but it went to House Health and Social Services (HESS) instead of House State Affairs. She mentioned that it was odd. CHAIR JAMES indicated that the other concern that she has is whether or not HB 438 can pass this year. Number 1618 MR. HARMAN answered that if the committee can get a waiver in Finance Committee, which he is hoping to do to keep it simple so that no policy issues are entered into and keep it narrow in scope, HB 438 can be passed over to the Senate. He reminded the committee that Senator Mackie has a companion bill going through the Senate right now. CHAIR JAMES asked if Mr. Goodwin had EMT certification. MR. GOODWIN replied that his department requires its commissioned state park rangers to obtain a level called emergency trauma technician (ETT) which is different than EMT. CHAIR JAMES said that the committee could expand the language according to the sponsor in HB 438 to include EMT officers wherever they are working, and that basically is for whom HB 438 was drafted. She stated that the committee could do a conceptual amendment that would include language that would not be so definitive as to be "a state troopers office or police or fire department." She asked if Representative Hudson would like to make that conceptual amendment. Number 1702 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON offered the conceptual amendment to add "or in any other emergency medical capacity" and let the drafting people as well as the prime sponsor perhaps deal with that in the next committee of referral, but it would require a bill drafter to put it in the right context. CHAIR JAMES said she did not know if the committee wanted to include the ETT or the EMT. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN suggested a first card [as a requirement] because it could be interpreted that broadly. CHAIR JAMES commented that she thinks the committee should stick with EMT. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON stated that HB 438 would say that. CHAIR JAMES explained that this gentleman from Anchorage whom the committee just heard from said that his department has a designation called ETT, which is lesser than an EMT. Number 1801 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON replied that he is not suggesting that. He indicated that he is simply saying that regarding (g) in HB 438, where it reads, "When an employee who was employed as an emergency medical service officer or an emergency medical technician...," that stands and "...in a state trooper office or in a police or fire department.." and add "or any other emergency medical capacity." CHAIR JAMES asked if everyone understood that conceptual amendment. She said that what she will do if the committee wants to pass this amendment is get a proposed CS, and before this committee passes HB 438 on to the next committee of referral, this committee will review the language again. REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY said he guesses that the committee needs to get an interpretation for him to feel comfortable because that last statement "or any other medical capacity" could cover an ETT. CHAIR JAMES agreed and she wants to know if anyone is in favor of this conceptual amendment because she will bring it back to the committee and see what the language does. She stated that she will have to talk to the drafter and tell him/her what the committee is trying to include. She informed the committee that she would get a proposed CS on HB 438 and bring it back to the committee, and it can be moved out first thing Thursday (4/6/00) morning. MR. HARMAN reiterated that the sponsor's intent was that EMTs primary duties are medical service. [HB 438 was held over.]
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